TVP WEEKLY: I am sorry to bring this up, but honestly, are you a Palestinian, an Arab Catholic or an Israeli citizen? How are you supposed to understand such a mixture when in Europe Arab means “Muslim”?

WADIE ABU NASSAR: The answer is simple! (laughs) I always say I am Israeli, but not Jewish. Palestinian, but not a Muslim, a Christian Catholic, but not a foreigner. So I am 100% Israeli, 100% Palestinian and 100% Christian and I do not see any contradiction in that. I can be 100% Israeli, I am a loyal citizen of the state of Israel, I want to work with my fellow Jews and Muslims, I am also a Palestinian, I am not from the moon. By the way, it is important to emphasize that Christians have been living in the Eastern Mediterranean since the time of Jesus. We are not newcomers and I did not convert only yesterday. We are firmly convinced that we are the great-grandchildren of the apostles.

Does this mean that the Christians of the Levant are indigenous here?

My family is from Nazareth. We have been here since the 17th century, before the Christian Arabs retreated to the deserts of nowadays' Syria and Iraq out of worry and threat. But before that we had lived here in Galilee. If you read the Acts of the Apostles, there are many groups, ethnicities, not only Jews but also Arabs, who lived on the shores of the Mediterranean. They were also the first Christians. When the Crusaders were defeated, the Christians of the Holy Land were either killed, became Muslims or fled into the desert. Why into the desert? Because there was no place for them to flee to, you could not go to Europe on boats. That is why the Christian Arabs came to the area of today's Syria and Iraq and lived there until the 17th century. During Ottoman rule, they began to return to Palestine.

Was it dangerous to be a Christian in this place of the world?

There were highs and lows. Perhaps one of the most difficult times has come in the last 60 years. We have experienced hard times, radicalisation, many Christians are afraid and leave the country or have fewer children. Now there are 170,000 Christians in Israel and 75% of them are Arab Christians. The rest are Christian from barious ethnicities, Russians or immigrants who married Israelis. We make up about 1.5-2% of the population, but in Gaza today there are only 137 Catholics and about 800 Orthodox.

But finally you have Palestinians Saints. And this is a relatively recent story.

When Pope Francis declared Marie Alphonsine Ghattas and Mariam Baouardy, they were the first two Palestinian saints of modern times. These two incredible women were very well known in Palestine in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, but for many centuries the focus was on church in Europe, and European history; therefore, the Church beatified mainly sainst from there. This fact does not mean there were not saints elsewhere. So in the 2000 years of Christianity, there were many saints that we still don’t know about. This does not mean that there were no saints in the Middle East, because they were not declared saints. I trust in God so that God knows everyone and there are many saints, and it is no surprise that in the Catholic Church we celebrate All Saints' Day on 1 November. All Saints are mainly for those who are unknown saints, who are unknown to the earth, but heaven knows them.

Perhaps the story is not only about saints, the martyrs. How Christians live under the rule of Islam? Muslims recognise Jesus as a prophet, but relations have always been bloody…

I am not generalizing, I am learning that in every religion, in every people, in every family, there are good people and bad people, there are people who would respect you even if you are a pagan, and there are people who would hate you. I am not saying that Muslims have been bad or good for Christians, and Christians have always been good for everyone. Even today, I joke with many Christians and say that our problem is not the Muslims and Jews, but you, because if you have Jesus Christ, you have no serious problems. To answer your question, history witnessed many ups and downs in the bilateral relations. And in some cases, even when relations were relatively bad, there were some positive steps, such as when under Ottoman rule, Christians were allowed back into some holy sites and were allowed to rebuild churches.

Under the Ottoman empire Christian institutions were exempted from municipal taxes. And why? Not out of love, but because they knew that the Christian institutions brought pilgrimages and other income to the Ottoman governor. In 1993, Israel and the Vatican signed an agreement which was supposed to keep the tax exemption to Christian institutions until a new agreement between them is concluded on fiscal issues. While such agreement is not concluded yet, some Israeli municipalities, such as that of Jerusalem, began introducing some sanctions in attempt to force some Christian institutions to pay municipal tax.

For some time now, Christians in Israel have been facing growing problems. What is the matter?

It is true that in recent years we have had growing problems with radical Jews, growing problems with the state of Israel. My problem is not the Jews, my problem is the Israeli government, because I say there are radicals all over the world. The challenge is how the government behaves, because even in Poland there are radicals, but the government works for stopping them. Any self-respecting country stops radicals and punishes them not to defend Christians but to defend the rule of law. In Israel we feel that they either do not care about radical Jews or turn a blind eye for political or theological reasons. We say this is bad for Israel. I wish things were limited to increase in the number of spitting incidents, unfortunately there was an increase in number and size of other aggressive acts such vandalism, attacks, intrusion, violence, etc. Things are not limited to these aggressions, since we have nowadays a serious crisis affecting our Christian schools. There are about 40 Christian schools in Israel suffering from cuts in government funding, and while Jewish religious schools are fully funded, the Christian schools have been discriminated against. This means a systematic and strategic threat to us.

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  In recent months there have also been many clips on social media in Poland of attacks committed by Orthodox Jews. The target is the Christians.

In the last year it has become even worse. In the last two weeks of July alone, 17 cases of discrimination against Christians were reported across the country. These include spitting on monks and sisters' monasteries, but also vandalism and direct aggression. I am surprised that you have seen these scenes in Poland, but it is not bad for us, but for my Jewish friends. I warned them: this kind of behavior will turn against you. The world will change its opinion of Jews as aggressive, intolerant and apartheid. This can lead to anti-Semitism outside Israel. The government does not act seriously against this phenomenon. In some cases, when some radical Orthodox Jews attack Christians in Jerusalem, the police claim the Jewish attackers are mentally ill. I think that in a normal country people who are a danger to others should be put in a closed hospital.

In Poland we have been brought up in the “religion” of tolerance. We have museums for Polish Jews, Jewish cultural festivals and promote tolerance towards this culture. So I am a little surprised how intolerant they are towards Christians in the Holy Land

Again, I do not want to generalize. I have always told my friends: please do not say that those "ugly Jews" attacked again. Of course there are individual Jews that committ ugly incidents which you see, but people in general tend to generalize. The same goes for the Muslim terrorist attacks in Palestine. The Muslims are not terrorists, just like the Jews are not ugly and aggressive towards the Christians in Jerusalem. Sometimes many young people from my community are angry with me because I said please do not react with violence, please do not. I do not want to generalize that not every radical, not every Orthodox Jew is against us. I met with Orthodox rabbis and some of them were surprised because I respect the Jewish people, and I explianed the Jews are not my enemies. Even those who attack us are not considered enemies in my eyes, since everybody is the child of God, and I hate their actions and don't hate them.

But OK, if you ask me about aggression, you need to know what the training is like at some yeshivas. If a priest in the Christian community in Poland calls for attacking or even killing the Jews, that will have been his last sermon. In the yeshivas, some of the rabbis teach the young people to hate others, including Christians.

Who is Jesus to them?

The worst person in Israel's history. The word is synonymous with "Satan." In a way, I can understand their anger. Jesus changed the world, but they were waiting for their Messiah. The Jews' anger at Christians has theological roots. If you are an Orthodox Jew, you won't set foot in a church, you don't accept the cross. Some Orthodox Jews don't even use the plus sign in math, replacing it with the upsidedown letter "T," and they don't even wear ties or shoes with laces. The ban on the symbol of the cross is like an obsession. But this is not the problem. I don't expect Orthodox Jews to accept or love me.

The law reform began to become a major issue in Israel's politics.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has a reputation for trying to manipulate others inside and outside Israel alike. Internally, and in apparent attempt to escape imrpisonment due to charges against him, he has been in the process of overturning Israel’s political and legal system. Now many of the citizens are against him and those who support his policies are mainly the far right and Orthodox Jews. That is why the government and the police have started to turn a blind eye to aggression and intolerance. The truth is that Netanyahu has put a super glue on his chair and does not want to lose power and is afraid of going to jail. That is the reason why he has done everything to change the legal system of the country. Therefore, Israel's main problem does not come from outside, but from within.

The Israeli–Palestinian conflict is one of the most enduring conflicts in the world. It has been a little quiet, but now it is the number one problem in the Middle East. What is the issue today?

Israel, driven by the extreme right and its orthodox counterparts, is trying to ignore the Palestinian Cause and need to allow the creation of an independent Palestinian state, while it advances systematic discrimination against the Arab citizens. As a result, the Arab community in Israel today faces three major challenges. One challenge is that the State of Israel does not care about the fifth of the country's citizens. Let me give you an example" 10 years ago there were some big Jewish criminal groups that the Israeli police declared war on. Now when we have a criminal problem, nobody cares, the police do like Pontius Pilate and wash their hands of it. The Arabs live in poverty and that is the first step to crime, the fertile ground for crime. The second is the Israeli government's policy on the education system. Today, many Arabs send their children to Christian schools because the level of education we offer is better than that of the state schools in the Arab neighborhoods. If the state does not invest in improving the reality, if education is poor, if people feel discriminated against, tension between Arabs and Jews become a reality.

The third problem is an internal problem of Arab society. In recent years, the patriarchal system has collapsed, and this is a worldwide phenomenon. People, especially the younger generation, no longer respect adults. Something that was the pillar of our culture and society has collapsed. Many youngsters think "if I have my mobile phone, I am God, so I do not even accept my father." So if you add these three factors together: the state no longer cares about the very bad reality, and the collapse of the patriarchal system, if you do not take crime seriously, if you do not invest, and if society collapses, then we have the reality. Some parts of Israel inhabited by Arabs have one of the highest crime and murder rates in the world.

I have the impression that the state is going in the wrong direction…

I have the impression that Israel is a schizophrenic state. You see, there are several states in Israel, it looks like one state, but there is the state of Tel Aviv, the state of Jerusalem, Tel Aviv is the bubble of democracy, liberal, libertarian, LGBT-tolerance. On the other hand the state of Jerusalem is orthodox, and is the black city. The problem is, that the current Israeli Government doesn't care if the problems are not affecting Jews. If you search about the recent attacks on Christians, you'll find that the Prime Minister's office hasn't even made one line of condemnation. He acts like he lives in another galaxy, not even on the moon, and that encourages the radicals, because if your son makes a problem, you say you're sorry, but if you keep quiet, what's the message?

Who can stand up for you when even the bishops of the Vatican take pity on the carrying of the cross in Jerusalem. Earlier, some senior clergy had hidden their own pectoral cross when they met with a group of rabbis in Jerusalem. What is the Vatican's policy in support of Christianity in Jerusalem?

Many Christians are disappointed that the Vatican has not made any public demands, others say no, the Vatican is doing what it can, whether diplomatically or by making demands. The Vatican knows that it has limited influence over Israel and does not want to escalate the conflict. I think there are some efforts by the Vatican, and I think there could be more efforts. But we have to take care of our selves by own activities. That's why I reached out to the President's advisors, to the Prime Minister's advisors, to various rabbis and to the Israeli media, because if you do that, people will respect you even if they do not like you. Understand, I am not looking for a love story, the love for my family and my wife is enough (laughs), so that is my humble policy of seeking mutual understanding and respect with others.

In today's world we, the Christians like to cry. I say Jesus was crucified, but the crucifixion was not the last station, since it was followed by resurrection! With all my respect I love the Pope I love the Vatican I love America I love Europe but I don't wait for them. The apostles didn't have a Vatican, they didn't have America, they didn't have Poland, they were 11 Galilean poor, illiterate, no money, nobody supported them, they lived in the terrible Roman Empire and a very difficult unfriendly Jewish religious establishment, and they changed the world. The Apostles were from Galilee, the 11 of them, only one was from Hebron area but he went to hell which is suitable for him. Our great grandfathers (the Apostles) taught the world what non-violent resistance is. Today we have Christians who are in number 10,000 times more than the apostles of 2000 years ago, but where are our fruits?

- Interview and translation by Cezary Korycki

TVP WEEKLY. Editorial team and jornalists

Mr Wadie Abu Nassar, Director of a think tank in Israel/Palestine; Coordinator of Forum of Holy Land Christians; media coordinator of the pilgrims of popes John Paul II and Benedict to Holy Land.