TVP WEEKLY: Azerbaijan celebrates the 100th anniversary of the birth of leader Heydar Aliyev – the father of the current president. Recently, the embassy in Poland celebrated this holiday in a very grand manner at the National Philharmonic in Warsaw. Your country prides itself on being the first Muslim democracy. However, the country did not enjoy independence for long...

ELCHIN AMIRBAYOV: We consider Heydar Aliyev our national leader because after the restoration of independence in 1991, he became the architect of modern Azerbaijan. It is true that the first Republic of Azerbaijan, which was also the first parliamentary republic in the Muslim East, did not survive for long. It existed exactly for 23 months, from 1918 until the Red Army entered in 1920.

In 1991, we restored independence as a result of the national liberation movement in Azerbaijan, which can be compared to the Polish Solidarity. At that time, in 1993, Heydar Aliyev [the First Secretary of the Communist Party of Azerbaijan from 1969 to 1982, President of Azerbaijan from 1993 to 2003 – ed.] had to confront a very difficult situation. The economic situation was terrifying – we had just lost a significant part of our territory in the war with Armenia, and the country was teetering on the brink of civil war. Aliyev saved and strengthened the independence of the state, realigned the economy on the right track. He was not only a great personality but also a symbol of modern Azerbaijan.

Wasn’t Soviet policy the real cause of the current conflict in the Caucasus? The policy of “divide and rule,” which divided Azerbaijan into two parts, separating them with Armenia, while assigning the Mountainous Karabakh to the Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic, inhabited by Armenians...

I agree with the first part of your question – empires like the Soviet Union do everything to subjugate smaller nations. This was true not only in the case of Azerbaijan but also in Georgia or Moldova. However, Karabakh has historically been Azerbaijani, although it has repeatedly become the subject of Armenian territorial claims against Azerbaijan.

You are also correct in saying that the Soviets artificially divided Azerbaijan into two parts, the so-called main part of the country and Nakhchivan. The territory between them was handed over to Armenia, and these territories are now part of the Armenian state. The idea of the USSR was to exploit the ethnic issue, plant ticking bombs containing the potential charge of separatism, and secure the ability to destabilise states if the need arose.

For the past 20 years, Azerbaijan has been ruled by Ilham Aliyev, the son of the previous president. The first and only Vice President is Mehriban Aliyeva, the president’s spouse, and there is speculation that the president’s son, Heydar, is being prepared as the successor. Such a model of governance is unprecedented in Poland and Europe...

First of all, I wouldn’t go so far as to predict the future and who will be the next president. It is pure speculation on your part. Secondly, the model where the son of someone who was president later becomes the head of state is not uncommon in the democratic world. I could give a few examples, such as the United States: George Bush senior was elected president in 1989, and his son in 2001, 12 years later, after an incredibly exciting and tumultuous election campaign in which he won by a hair, not thanks to being anointed by his father.

Let me clarify that Ilham Aliyev is not the head of state today solely because he is Heydar Aliyev’s son. He is the president because he was the choice of the Azerbaijani people who voted for him. Since 2003, he has been elected four times in general elections. In 1993, when the situation in Azerbaijan was critical, our citizens unanimously called on Heydar Aliyev, his father, to leave Nakhchivan, where he was in exile, come to the capital Baku, and save the country from tragedy, the loss of statehood, and independence.

Azerbaijanis voted for Heydar Aliyev twice in democratic elections. During his 10-year presidency, he managed to save the nation from civil war, reach a ceasefire with Armenia, and gradually steer Azerbaijan’s economy on the right track, averting the threat of collapse. In just a decade, he left a rich legacy that demanded continuity. The successor who would ensure the continuation of the chosen strategic course of Azerbaijan’s development was of paramount importance. In 2003, Ilham Aliyev submitted his candidacy, which received full support from his father.

But Ilham Aliyev was not the only candidate. The opposition also fielded their representatives. The nation chose continuity, stability, progress, and predictability. The people decided that Aliyev’s son would best continue his father’s policy. The people believed that the development strategy should not be changed when the situation is so delicate, and the country is still grappling with many critical challenges. The most important issue was the ongoing illegal occupation of nearly one-fifth of Azerbaijan’s territory by Armenia.

The policies of Ilham Aliyev and their implementation have yielded tangible results, earning the recognition of the Azerbaijani people. This has allowed him to effectively seek reelection. Our constitution does not impose any limits on the number of terms, but each time the elections have been free and fair. Anyone who familiarises themselves with these details will understand that it is not unusual at all.

The president’s wife, Mrs. Mehriban Aliyeva, who currently also serves as the First Vice President of Azerbaijan, is an extremely active figure in our public life. She deals with many issues related to the socio-economic development of our country and is highly respected. She also heads the Heydar Aliyev Foundation, which addresses a range of important issues in the humanitarian, social, and cultural spheres of Azerbaijan.

We should not focus on emotional aspects or labels but consider legal and formal matters. Every election in Azerbaijan has been fully in line with domestic and international law. Each time, people vote, and their choice must be respected. If tomorrow people vote for someone else, that person will, of course, become the president. Everyone has the right to vote according to their conscience. And everyone decides what is better: to maintain the current course or make radical changes.

Azerbaijan is not a well-known country in Poland. Meanwhile, there have been and still are many Armenians – who come from neighbouring Armenia – in Poland. Every Pole, whether from the capital or the smallest town in Podkarpacie, probably knows someone from that country. But when you search for information about Azerbaijan on the internet, the only thing you can find is the war over Nagorno-Karabakh and that Qarabağ FK eliminated Lech Poznań from European competitions.

(Laughter) That’s true. The difference between Azerbaijanis and Armenians is that we are strongly connected to our land. At no point in our history have we experienced mass emigration. Our people won’t leave unless they are compelled by specific personal circumstances. Although, of course, we live in different times now, and quite a few people leave the country in search of work or education, which is normal.

However, you are mistaken about Armenians. They did not arrive in the West in the 1990s. If you read your sources available here in Poland, you will see that they have been in your country for centuries. It would undoubtedly be easier for us if we also had such a diaspora serving as a bridge between societies and allowing our country and culture to be better known.

But it is not our fault that it is not the case. All we can do is gradually bridge that gap. Currently, we have thousands of Azerbaijani students in Poland who have chosen to study in your country. Some of them will probably decide to stay, and some will return. I think the situation may change soon. We will have many more Azerbaijani citizens who will also be European citizens.

You are right that most people in Europe hear about Azerbaijan due to the conflict. Moreover, it is a tragic and protracted conflict since Armenia sought to occupy our territory and annex it. Not only the former Nagorno-Karabakh but also the neighbouring areas. And for over thirty years, no international institution has been able to do anything about this aggression.

Today, we witness the war between Russia and Ukraine, which has mobilised the entire international community. Unfortunately, in our case, there was and still is no such reaction. It appears that we have double standards in international relations. Unfortunately, when 20% of our territories were unlawfully occupied, completely destroyed, and when a million people from those areas were subjected to ethnic cleansing and expelled from their own homes, we did not see any states eager to help or protest: Warsaw, Berlin, Paris. We were far away for them, and therefore, unfortunately, we meant nothing.

It is normal, charity begins at home. I understand that the conflict in the Caucasus is a matter of life and death for both Azerbaijan and Armenia, just as Poland is the most important for me. But international relations are a brutal game. Neither Poland, nor Azerbaijan, nor Armenia are key players in it. For people living in Florida or London, your war is a local conflict at the end of the world.

That’s true, but it’s not just about the distance. Both Azerbaijan and Armenia are located in Europe. We are members of many international European organisations, such as the OSCE and the Council of Europe, the same ones as Poland. It is about the significance of international law. If a state violates it and then remains unpunished without facing any consequences, other countries will believe they can do the same, and they will get away with it. Impunity shows that it is profitable to be a rogue.

Perhaps if international organisations had reacted in the early 1990s immediately after the aggression against Azerbaijan and if that reaction had been visible, the scale and consequences of this tragic conflict would have been different. And other similar conflicts in the world would not have erupted, including those in our neighbourhood.

In 1992, parts of Azerbaijan came under Armenian occupation, and no one reacted to this injustice. So later, a similar scenario unfolded in Georgia, in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, as well as in Moldova, in Transnistria. Today, we have a full-scale war in Ukraine. It is a classic domino effect. If you don’t react in one place, this inaction leads to similar situations emerging elsewhere.

But let me say one thing. Today, we finally have an open prospect of ending this long-standing conflict. The Armenian Prime Minister says he is ready to recognise Azerbaijan’s territory, including Karabakh.

We need to see how much such declarations are worth in reality. Here is a new map, showing Karabakh [Elchin Amirbayov shows a map – ed.]. The areas marked in yellow are still not under Azerbaijan’s control, and there are still 10,000 regular Armenian military units in those areas. If their Prime Minister is serious and if Armenia respects our territorial integrity, they must withdraw their forces from those territories, as Nikol Pashinyan pledged to do in 2020.

Pashinyan is one of the first leaders in Armenia who wants peace. However, the Armenian public, especially the wealthy and influential diaspora, is not willing to admit defeat. So perhaps an agreement should be arranged in a way that allows both sides to save face and announce success in their own territories?

Who represents public opinion in Armenia? Because if we talk about the nation, democratic elections, and voters who determined Armenia’s future by choosing Pashinyan, they still strongly support not only him but also his policies. They support his efforts to curb hostility towards Azerbaijan and Turkey. The so-called Karabakh issue is no longer at the top of the priority list for his voters. If it were different, Pashinyan would not have won the elections. For Armenians, it is more important for Armenia to become a good country to live in, with a developed economy and a predictable future. Above all, it should be a country that is much less dependent on its current patrons.

It seems to me that the declarations made to Pashinyan and the agreement by Azerbaijan leaders do not help. For example, on 18 April 2023, in an interview with the state television AzTV, President Ilham Aliyev stated: “Armenians living in Karabakh must either accept Azerbaijani citizenship or find another place to live.”

One should not take those words out of context. Their meaning is as follows: the residents of Karabakh, which is an integral part of Azerbaijan, have a real choice. They can stay and live in Azerbaijan, abandon futile fantasies, accept our constitution, the principles of coexistence, and our citizenship.

And if they do not want to do that, they can choose to leave our country. That’s all there is to it. We would like those who choose to stay to enjoy full rights, including employment opportunities, education, healthcare, and more. But it must be done in strict accordance with the fundamental rights of Azerbaijan.

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  We differ from Armenia, which is rather a monoethnic country. In Azerbaijan, representatives of over 50 ethnic groups live in harmony, like one family, and abide by our common law. We have one constitution and do not discriminate against anyone based on their ethnic origin, religion, or language.

If Armenia wants to come out with dignity and show goodwill, they should simply accept these people, either as residents of our country and encourage dialogue with the central authorities, or welcome them into their own country. It’s that simple. We don’t expect them to stop using their language or abandon their religion. We have multiple religions, but we live as one big family.

I would like to see a day when Armenia treats the Azerbaijani minority in the same way in their own country. But there won’t be such an opportunity anymore because over 200,000 ethnic Azerbaijanis who lived in Armenia in the late 1980s were subjected to ethnic cleansing before the 1990s began.

We delve into the details of the conflict that most of our Polish readers won’t understand because they do not follow it on a daily basis. But they are interested in why peace has not prevailed in the Caucasus for over 30 years and why people there cannot reconcile and prosper as is happening in the European Union.

I believe that just like us, the citizens of Armenia also see a chance for peace, and I hope they genuinely want it. The vast majority of them are aware that they are not giving away their territory to us, but rather returning our lands. That is what peace will entail. They are also aware of the economic, military, and geopolitical situation. They see the state of their economy and the fact that they cannot develop because for the past 30 years, they have focused on the legal annexation of parts of our territory.

They also see that currently, two out of their four external border crossings are blocked. With Turkey and us. Besides that, they only have Georgia and Iran. So let’s reconcile, open the borders, and start economic cooperation. After all, we can establish economic and trade relations, and maybe even invest in Armenia, as you mentioned, and they can finally live normally.

Because what is their life like today? 60% of their economy depends on Russian oligarchs, two foreign military bases are located on their territory, and a third one is under construction. A significant portion of their external border is guarded by Russian border guards from the FSB. Due to difficulties arising from the climate on the border with Georgia, Armenia currently only has an open and fully functioning border with Iran. How can we talk about true independence in such a situation?

Perhaps it is better to think pragmatically: when we end the conflict, open the borders, just like Turkey will do, and that will provide completely different possibilities. What have they gained from these years of occupying Karabakh? They haven’t become a wealthier country because there is no oil or gas there, and their population hasn’t increased. Armenian citizens are leaving the country because they don’t see a future there. Their country’s population used to be 3.5 million, and now it’s around 2.5 million.

We propose peace to Armenia, and in our view, it’s a situation where we all win. It’s not just about winning the war. It’s about their army completely leaving our territory, and Armenian civilians who live there can live and enjoy their rights as responsible Azerbaijani citizens.

I agree with the statement that the Armenian diaspora doesn’t want peace. They have always been the most aggressive and uncompromising group among Armenians. They enjoy a comfortable life far from Armenia, while its inhabitants struggle with difficulties caused by war and conflict every day. It’s the Armenian diaspora that fuels the Karabakh problem. They consider any Armenian politician who seeks peace as a traitor, like Pashinyan recently.

But why? The guy is simply pragmatic. It’s better to recognize borders, leave the neighbour’s territory in peace, and live in harmony, maybe even as friends. But the diaspora doesn’t allow that. For over 30 years, they have been funding their allies in Armenia and financing the war.

We have a saying: he who pays the piper calls the tune. They always request a melody that prevents a friendly relationship with us and Turkey.

I know they may suffer from the trauma caused by tragic events in their history. Whatever happened in the past should remain in the past. One cannot forever be a hostage of history, especially when it is not clear at all who is responsible for that part of history.

I apologise, but as a historian by my first education, I will not relativize history. The massacre of 1.5 million Armenians is a historical fact, regardless of the need to return to normal international relations.

Many human beings from many different ethnic groups tragically lost their lives then. This happened over a hundred years ago. Historians should be the ones dealing with this topic, not serving politicians. You yourself mention in your interviews the relations between Poles and Germans during World War II and today. Times change. By the way, Turkey made a gesture of reconciliation towards Armenia and proposed opening all archives so that historians from both countries could shed more light on the events of that time. Unfortunately, Armenia rejected that offer.

Fortunately, Prime Minister Pashinyan does not share the view that we should live in the past. However, the Armenian diaspora holds a different opinion, for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Financially and militarily, Armenia cannot afford another war today – that should be clear to everyone. Besides, we also do not want war – we want to turn the page of hostility and begin a new chapter of peacebuilding with our Armenian neighbors.

Isn’t it the case that the problem lies not with the diaspora but mainly with Russia, which wants this war, fuels the war because it profits from it? Russia sells weapons to both Armenia and Azerbaijan. Thanks to this conflict, it maintains its troops on Armenian soil and effectively made the country dependent on Russia.

I do not want to comment on how Russia made Armenia dependent on it. But the fact is that currently, Yerevan’s only military alliance is with Moscow. Everyone sees how it looks. We are allied only with Turkey, but it is a strategic partnership and brotherhood. Unlike Armenia, we have built an independent economy. We have no foreign military bases [Russian troops are stationed in Armenia – ed.]. We are entirely independent and self-sufficient, and we want to live in harmony with all our neighbours, including Russia.

Moving on to Russia’s role in the second Karabakh war: it was the only country that was present on the ground, helped both countries end the armed conflict, and facilitated the signing of the agreement to cease hostilities. Many different things can be said about Russia, but where were the EU and the USA at that time? They were completely absent. They were very far away.

Regarding Moscow – at the recent meeting with the President of Russia, the Prime Minister of Armenia quarrelled with the President of Azerbaijan over the nomenclature of border corridors. I saw the expression on Vladimir Putin’s face, who was, to put it mildly, surprised by such an attitude and had no idea how to behave. Don’t you see that the world does not understand this “much ado about nothing,” and such squabbles do not bring allies to either side?

We are not surprised because the problem has been ongoing for over 30 years. Furthermore, for us it’s not a “nothing”. We find it strange when European leaders sometimes “growl” at each other over trivial matters from our perspective.

But let’s get back to the Caucasus. One of the main challenges we face is the lack of trust. Why don’t we trust the Armenians? Because they have changed their position in recent years. In 2018, Prime Minister Pashinyan said he didn’t want to talk to Azerbaijan because they were attacking us, and then he stated that he was ready to negotiate. That’s the difference between Prime Minister Pashinyan and our President Aliyev, who is consistent, predictable, and trustworthy. He keeps his word. Even if there are differences of opinion, he fulfils every commitment as if he had personally signed it.

Nevertheless, we believe that at this moment, Pashinyan is the right person to talk to since he is the one leading the country. After Armenia ceased blocking the negotiation process, which lasted from last December, talks resumed in May this year. The Armenian side probably realised that it is difficult to achieve peace without talking to Azerbaijan. We have already had several recent meetings, and some progress has been made. We are confident that future rounds will allow us to narrow the differences between us.

This year, I visited the Armenian town of Sotk. I saw destroyed houses, a school hit by shelling, and talked to the residents. Because of this conflict, civilian populations have been suffering for 30 years, and they want to live normally, in peace.

Civilians pay the highest price in any war. Civilians are the first front in a conflict, which is why we want peace with Armenia. We want to end the suffering. You visited Sotk, which is good, but I would like you to find time to visit the territories in Azerbaijan where there is not a single undamaged building.

In those places, you saw people who are suffering. It’s tragic. But in the Azerbaijani territories I’m talking about, there are no longer any former inhabitants. Ethnic cleansing took place there. No one from the former inhabitants is left there.

Homes were completely destroyed, and there is nothing to return to. Those are places of war crimes. Over one-ninth of Azerbaijan’s total area of 86,000 square kilometres was completely destroyed by the aggressor.

Therefore, now that we have liberated these territories from the occupier, it is our duty to clean up this mess. We will build new cities and towns, villages, and new homes so that people can return and lead normal lives there. We do not want to think about the threat of a new war because we have had enough. That’s why we proposed negotiations with Armenia for a peace treaty.

At some point, we may succeed in agreeing on the content of such a treaty, but the most important thing is to ensure its full implementation. We don’t want illusions, we want real peace. We want Armenia to fulfil all its previous commitments and withdraw its military contingent remaining on our sovereign territory before it’s too late. Of course, Armenians can live in Azerbaijan – they will have their rights, but it must be remembered that every citizen, in addition to rights, also has responsibilities that they must fulfill.

It’s not just about the Karabakh conflict. We want a lasting peace that covers the entire South Caucasus. We don’t want our countries to see each other as enemies. We want them to at least see each other as neighbours and maybe, with time, even as friends.

Those are beautiful words. Our western neighbours in the past brutally murdered Poles. For a German, killing a Pole was like spitting. And today, representatives of the German minority sit in the Polish parliament, and Berlin is our main trading partner.

“Der Untermensch” – was that how German Nazis referred to Slavs, among others? We are aware of what happened to you. It is a very recent history. Fortunately, I did not lose any close family members in the war with the Armenians, although some of my friends died. A significant portion of people still suffer from the loss of their loved ones. It is not the politicians who “fuel” them, but the fact that their relatives were killed months or years ago. We talk about peace, but we cannot forget the sacrifice of our brothers and sisters.

I believe that on one hand, we need to remember what happened, but on the other hand, we should focus on the future. On preventing further wars. On rebuilding the areas affected by the brutal conflict. In our case, it also involves enabling hundreds of thousands of displaced people to return to the homes from which they were expelled. Despite the suffering that has affected our nation, we are ready for peace. I assure you that we are.

But we also need time. In Poland, the war ended in 1945. It would have been difficult to say that in 1946, Germans were welcomed here. Everything must happen slowly but steadily.

Can you imagine the Azerbaijani embassy on Republic Square in Yerevan [the centre of the Armenian capital – ed.]?

I answer without hesitation: yes, I can! I also hope that it will happen in the near future! Please see what has happened recently. Iran opened an embassy in Saudi Arabia. If someone had talked about it in Iran a year ago, no one would have believed it. Politics is – since you mentioned Lech Poznań – like football. Everything is possible. The important thing is to create a solid foundation that ensures peace is not temporary but lasting and too precious to be squandered. So that our children do not see each other as enemies.

Since we are talking about Iran: What are Azerbaijan’s relations like with that country?

You probably know well the long history of our relations. Our rich and complex ties go back a long time. The recent period was not easy in any respect. We share over 700 kilometres of border and nearly 30 million Azerbaijanis currently live in Iran, which is an important factor in our bilateral relations. Azerbaijanis from across the Aras River maintain close ties with us.

We would like to restore normal relations with Iran. For that to be possible, we expect the Iranian authorities to conclude the investigation into the shameful terrorist attack on our embassy in Tehran, in which our compatriot lost his life [on 27 January 2023, an armed man entered the diplomatic mission with two young children. He killed the head of the embassy’s security and wounded two guards, also destroying the guard post in front of the building by shooting at it with a rifle – ed.].

We expect the presentation of the investigation results, which will allow for justice to be served and those responsible for the attack to be punished. We are waiting for concrete actions to be taken. At the same time, our trade and economic relations with our southern neighbour are of great importance to us, and we are ready to further develop them.

Poland is experiencing a war in Ukraine. Therefore, it is natural for me to ask how the Azerbaijani authorities perceive Moscow’s aggression towards Kyiv?

Of course, we are opposed to war, whether it is with Armenia or Ukraine, because we believe that we do not need more casualties and human suffering must come to an end. In our view, international law should intervene to ensure that Ukraine’s borders are respected. Azerbaijan has expressed its clear position supporting the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine, also because it directly aligns with our principles.

Azerbaijan is one of the leading countries in sending humanitarian aid to Ukraine. We are implementing many projects in Ukraine and Azerbaijan to alleviate the suffering of innocent civilians. Ukrainian citizens find refuge in our country, although not to the same extent as in Poland. Just a week ago, we had a meeting between our President Ilham Aliyev and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, during which the Ukrainian President expressed immense gratitude to Azerbaijan for all the assistance provided.

Who does Crimea belong to?

Crimea belongs to Ukraine, of course. As I mentioned before, Azerbaijan respects the territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders.

The economic exchange between Poland and Azerbaijan is virtually unnoticed. Last year, it amounted to only $120 million, with the vast majority being Polish exports (imports were only $6.5 million per year). Why does it look so weak?

I agree that our trade exchange is small and definitely does not reflect its potential. Both sides should examine the reasons behind it. In March 2023, after an eight-year break, the Intergovernmental Commission on Economic Cooperation finally resumed its sessions. Representatives from PKN Orlen will soon visit Baku and hold a meeting with Azerbaijan’s state oil company, SOCAR. It is evident that there is great interest in strengthening cooperation from both sides, in line with the strategic partnership agreement concluded between our countries in 2017.

Azerbaijan is an important energy partner of the European Union. More and more European countries are recipients of our oil and gas. The ports of Baku and Gdańsk cooperate with each other. We are also keen on investing in alternative and renewable energy sources. We hope that Polish capital will enter our country. We expect the participation of Polish companies in programs for the reconstruction and revitalization of recently liberated territories from occupation. We anticipate that Polish companies will join our efforts in rebuilding Karabakh. Azerbaijan is also a key link in the so-called Middle Corridor, connecting China and Europe. I believe this is another area where we can engage in close cooperation.

You are the representative of the First Vice President of Azerbaijan, who was awarded by President Lech Kaczyński with the Order of Polonia Restituta (Order of Restored Poland) – one of the most important Polish distinctions. What did she do to deserve it?

President Lech Kaczyński was a great friend of Azerbaijan and significantly contributed to strengthening our close and friendly bilateral relations. He enjoyed an excellent personal relationship with our President Aliyev. That period marked perhaps the strongest political cooperation between our countries. Many meetings took place in both Warsaw and Baku. During that time, the First Vice President of Azerbaijan (and also the President of the Heydar Aliyev Foundation) made a significant contribution to the implementation of projects promoting Azerbaijan in Poland and deepening Polish-Azerbaijani cooperation. This high distinction was awarded to Mrs. Mehriban Aliyeva in recognition of her valuable contributions.

–Interview by Karol Wasilewski

TVP WEEKLY. Editorial team and jornalists

–Translated by jz